“Et tu, Brutus?” Is Your Church An NSA Spy?

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SVP church NSA

I reached a sad point in life a few years ago where not much really shocks me anymore. And being a religious historian provided more knowledge and insight into understanding of the darker side of organized religion than most of the average flock or even their ministry has. So even the resurgence of abominable historic atrocities in the name of God was not that surprising to me either.

But here is something really bothers me to a point where I’m losing sleep over it. This is something way, way off the charts, even when it comes to the questionable idiosyncrasies of religionism, and it’s counterpart, government authoritarianism.

It’s something so woefully evil that everybody, regardless of your particular faith, philosophy, or absence thereof, should take this situation into serious perspective for the future of our survival as a free nation.

Our Police State USA has now reached new devastating heights of radical intrusion into our personal privacy. They are now violating your right to practice your own religion without interference and using our faith based belief systems against us as a tool to eliminate Constitutional Law!

The Church of “Latter Day Totalitarianism”

In some ways I expected this. It’s no conspiracy theory that we already know that the FBI and the DHS has paid informants or actual undercover agents in virtually every significant mosque in the country spying on the membership. Not just the known outspoken radicalized groups, which should be investigated if there is serious evidence for probably cause, but ALL mosques are now infiltrated by arbitrary government surveillance. This is blatantly unconstitutional because not all Muslims are terrorist psychos.

Unfortunately it’s not against the law for police to dress and pose as a priest or minister, doctor, or anyone else to gain the confidence of someone you are trying to gain information from. Apparently even the entrapment laws have been compromised. And FBI and police agencies are now giving specific community watch “classes” on how to carefully spy on your neighbors, friends, and family members!

We know that recently the slope got slicker and all government employees got memos to report any discussions or attitudes of animosity toward the government and even other strange emotional behavior to their supervisors immediately. Now this isn’t specifically limited to radical Islamist behavior or speech, but it includes and emphasizes all anti-government speech!

There’s even a G sponsored public media push to change everybody into a flock of stool pigeons called “if you see something, say something”. Really? Merely seeing something or saying something stupid doesn’t constitute probable cause to have swat teams flash banging your kids into blindness and deafness for the rest of their lives?

You can’t even have a criminal conspiracy charge unless there is a “furtherance of physical contribution” to any plans. But apparently the authorities somehow now think it is?

Emboldened by their apparent success in abridging free thought and speech by the lack of public or organizational outcry, the regime put their balls to the wall and then actually attempted to make climate change deniers susceptible to some kind of criminal punishment!

While it’s bad enough Hillary now exhibits no circumspection in her campaign battle cry to crush the NRA’s attempt to exercise their right to promote firearms, and sinister stump promises to eliminate certain forms of “bad speech” against others–it’s an easy bet as to which bad speech will be number one on her speech shit list—we now have…

The Scourging of Church Privacy

How about the government now violating your right to practice your faith in the sanctity and security of your own church?!

In a NorthJersey.com news article (check the reference list below), a joint FBI/DHS task force is currently actively enlisting teams of clergy, educators, and health care providers to proactively spy on their constituents.

Not just as an atter of normal citizen responsibility as, for instance, to report to police any obvious acts or threats of potential terrorist criminal activity, but to particularly target those persons not committing any criminal acts or threats or intent, but merely exercising their rights to free speech exhibiting associated anti-government/establishment emotional or mental stress. Which includes a whole lot of us, by the way (which also happens to be setting up the foundation for an entirely different future gun confiscation agenda, as well).

These spy operations will be called SRC (Shared Responsibility Community) Teams. Some aggressive police state communities are also now using something called CER (Community Engagement Round Tables) with confidential training on how to spy on folks and some churches are now using facial recognition surveillance equipment, ostensibly for security but nevertheless linking in to the NSA’s massive data collection base.

There’s even an organization registered as Churchix which provides consulting for churches who wish to get involved.

churchix

This amounts to nothing less than establishing local organization based snitch teams consisting of your most trusted associates and mentors disguised as “preventive maintenance teams” to report directly to the FBI/DHS.

Essentially bypassing the 5th and 4th amendment due process requirements and making private protected conversation available to the government without your consent to be used against you for their insidious agendas. And as always, speciously justified under the fraudulent notion of ‘public’ safety and ‘extreme crime prevention’.

Between all that and the already well established automatic voluntary information interrogation of your private info to the NSA by Facebook and other social media venues, this is really the absolute end of your privacy rights, folks!

The politically correct equivocation is that this is not just for Islamists, but also for U.S. based “domestic extremist groups”. Translation: Patriot militia groups, sovereign libertarians, “molon labe” types, and eventually, any anti-government verbal dissent or opposition.

Unholy Bedfellows

It is not widely known or universally published that historically the church (and quite a few other sectarian religious organizations) never had qualms about resorting to bribery, intimidation, and even torture and murder to enforce “the laws and will of God”.

Spying to control the flock was a deeply rooted part of the church’s operation. The Jesuits were always the Church’s equivalent to the CIA. And as bad as all this government spying on the flock is, the government couldn’t hold a novena candle to the church’s proprietary tradition of Confession. The church’s “intelligence” system doesn’t need to spend all that tax money on cloud storage of everything you say, buy, read, and do.

The local parish pastor or local church minister knows much more about everybody than the government. Because the sinful information is willingly confessed to the priests by the flock members in little rooms in the back of the church called confessionals after which the now forgiven sinners gratefully even sometimes donate money to the unholy practice.

Local non Catholic Christian churches garnish the flock’s trust withwitnessing at gatherings after sermons, and then private office counsel services by their ministers for the faithful, often with intimate revealing conversations often taking place that should be protected under client privilege law, but really isn’t under these new Police State rules.

Is this latest privacy intrusion by authorities’ the precursor of a nascent Government-Vatican power elite merger? After all, They both share the same gun control agenda?

They’re both going broke, and if economic doom soothsayers are correct the G will have to begin selling off some of the land out west they stole over the years from the ranchers to China for some cash flow, and the church might have to sell some of that gold and art they traded from the Nazis for helping them get new id’s and set up in South American and elsewhere.

So in true totalitarian ingenuity, it’s only logical and deviously clever for the G to take advantage not only of the liberty and privacy weakness along with the gullibility of organized religion, but also of their highly developed proven control methodology over their flocks.

Why NOT initiate a community Police State program where your own church clergy are working with and for the Government to spy on your personal life? Totalitarianism would work even better as a “religionist police state”. The best of both totalitarian worlds. And this shameless immoral, unethical, and unconstitutional treason on both sides… is what Jesus died for?

The Kiss of “Jude-Ass”

My immediate reaction was “wait just one Holy Cow gall dang minute! Isn’t this direct recruitment of the church as a government intelligence subcontractor a blatant violation of the 1st Amendment Separation Clause? Isn’t setting up any kind of government relationship to further government control over the people determined in some Constitutional case law as a direct assault on the 1st Amendment separation law?”

So many times I’ve said it before but…Where’s ACLU on THIS?! Maybe they’re too busy with the ‘Big Stinky Potty’ debate, Gay marriage, or some such other bullshit nonsense?

And, why is there such a noticeable suspicious absence of concern from the church and Christian leadership on this? Or more importantly, where’s the outrage and marching, and condemnation by the rank and file Christian community on this? What is this strange “church mouse” silence in the holy vestibules of our houses of prayer?

Maybe they are too afraid of losing the Big Daddy G knee bounce of not having to pay church property taxes freebie? Or losing that non-profit corp but big business money making tax break status they get for being a church?

Do they have more fear of the regime, than they have fear of God? Could it be the Lord’s way of teaching us a lesson or a warning to let us know that we should never drink the poisonous potion of Government and Faith based religions working together against the people? Mixing politics and spiritualism can ultimately destroy us all, like it did all throughout history? Which is why the Founder’s created the 1st Amendment.

Is this a sign from God? A manifestation of a foretold prophesy of hell fire and brimstone punishment for trying to making deals with the devil and having sinful dreams of theocratic power lust?

guns and god

Let the Good Old End Times Begin!

Lately I’m finding myself glancing more up at the heavens.

I’m watching for Jesus to gloriously come gliding down from the sky through the chem-trails, with His Malificent, I mean Magnificent winged angels behind him slinging their AR-15’s…Locked and loaded.

But as a refugee from a Seminary and person of the cloth myself, I had a spiritual dream that I better get up off my potato chip ass, and start prepping for his second coming– because now I’m certain that the end is near — by calling my representative and asking him about this.

No, wait, by demanding that he finds out some answers to the Constitutional validity of all this, and then email the ACLU and some others. And then go out and pick up a couple thousand more rounds.

Because like everyone else, maybe Christians are simply too busy caught up with wasting valuable time on their obsessive compulsive anti-LGBT crusade side of the toilet seat holy wars? And, of course, THAT’s exactly what the G likes to see instead of concentrating on more important things in life like the destruction of their faith from within.

And they wonder why overall church interest is in decline these days, especially with young people?

Maybe the Pope should skip the social media twitter twatting for sheep recruiting and get right to the bare essentials and do a Holy Smokin’ twerkin’ rock video with Miley? Call it “The Last Crucifixion”… of our liberties!

This article has been written by Mahatma Muhjesbude for Survivopedia.

References:

http://www.northjersey.com/news/n-j-anti-terrorism-plan-aims-to-spot-those-vulnerable-to-being-radicalized-1.1556340

http://churchix.com/

Mahatma Muhjesbude

About Mahatma Muhjesbude

Mahatma Muhjesbude is a former Spec-ops combat Vet, LEO, international security consultant, and private contractor. He has instructor level credentials and skills in various survival disciplines. He is a dedicated advocate of Liberty and Justice for all and a proactive defender of our Constitutional rights. He strongly believes that the best value you can give back in life is vital knowledge through experience, and that's why he's writing for Survivopedia, using a pen name to protect his real identity. You can send Mahatma a message at editor [at] survivopedia.com

Comments

  1. way2confused says:

    Gee, "see something, say something." I see an American hating arse in the Oval Office and I want it gone. There, I saw something and I said it.

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  2. Ezra Obrien says:

    Thanks, Mahatma. Truly the slope is slippery. Let me throw in another allusion to religious history. The Council of Chalcedon separated Christianity from every other system in 451 AD. Rushdoony does a tremendous job explaining the Council's implications in 'Foundations of Social Order,' chapter 7. A short part of the bottom line: The state cannot be divine and earthly at the same time; only Christ can ever be both. Indeed, the state can't be god at all -- God settles that in the First Commandment. One important consequence is that the state and the church are separate domains under Christ, and should not attempt to control each other.
    Now, as a simple and practical matter, any government agents nosing around in my congregation are going to find that we use the Bible as the sole source of our morality and practice, and if they want to insinuate anything else, they won't get any traction. We teach that every believer has a mandate to be mature in understanding these things, because at root the question is simply, who is God? And obviously, the state is not God. It doesn't matter whether we stated that clearly in the Constitution or not, because we can find it easily in the Bible, which is the higher source. What matters is that God's people understand it and are willing to apply it.

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    • Kent morean says:

      I found the article we are commenting on very strange. It is judgmental and hostile towards BOTH government and religion. Like the real agenda is to cause as mush distrust and division as possible between the two. To paraphrase Jesus: Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and no more! And render unto God that which is God's, and no less!

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      • Mahatma Muhjesbude says:

        That's pretty conventionally easy to say, in general unquestioned quotation, Kent. But What, EXACTLY, is the complete essence of what we must render unto God which is God's...and no less?

        And the hostility you might perceive is not against government or God in and of themselves. It is because of the malevolent evil that the undeniable corruption in both social venues of religionism and government that is now threatening the destruction of the Liberties and justice granted by the 'Natural Law' of honest objective reasonableness and fairness under 'Nature's God'' (quotes from Declaration of Independence)

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  3. Barbara Andrew says:

    I'm "spiritual", not religious. I don't attend a structured religion. I found most churches/synagogues to hypocritical. I'm "locked and loaded", preparing for the end of days. This article while it maybe enlightening to some. It's really no surprise, or at least it shouldn't be.

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  4. EASTOFAUSTIN says:

    Mahatma, while I agree with many things you say, I think you are painting with an over-broad brush. Certainly there are many instances in history where religious institutions have been manipulative and controlling. There are extreme examples where those in the name of religion have murdered without remorse. We can name the "crusades" and "inquisition" or we can look at the Islamic expansion in the 7th century. Even the "Old Testament" "histories" are full of demands by God to conquer and kill the people of the land as the Israelites were settled in "the promised land." Look at Pakistan and India, Northern Ireland, the Balkans, or a host of others in our modern age-- places were religion provided a veneer of explanation for settling ethnic and historical scores. Religion has often been used as a rallying cry for political causes. Too often, the issues are profit-ic, in contrast to prophetic.

    The issue is whether these are the norms of history, in contrast to the exceptions. You make the case that they are the norms. In my experience as 35 years as a pastor, this is foreign to my experience. The closest I have come to it was Ross Perot's movement to try and get the church's involved in pushing the Texas War on Drugs in the early 1980s. I was both a pastor at the time and a reserve deputy sheriff. I road a bus to Austin with the Texas War on Drugs group. While at the Capitol, I saw a friend of mine from a music festival where I was a regular. He was a counter protester. I went to the other side of the gallery and visited with him for a few minutes. I went into the restroom, and as I was getting ready to leave, two big guys I didn't know blocked the door and confronted me. "Where did you get that badge?" pointing to my Texas War on Drugs name tag. He reached to take it, saying "We saw you talking to that hippie." I took a step back and pulled my SO badge and credentials out of my pocket. I said, "I think you need to back off." With panicked looks, one said to the other, "It's okay. He's working undercover." I never saw them again. However, when I got back to our small town, at the next clergy association meeting, I mentioned the incident and passed on my judgment that the "Texas War on Drugs" movement was dangerous and almost all the churches pulled out of being sponsors.

    Some of the Texas WOD's ideas were not bad. It was built around knowing the families of your children's friends. They wanted to form colleague groups of parents of kids in the same grade level which would keep parents informed of what was going on at school so kids couldn't do the old "everybody else is doing it" game. They wanted the church's to host the colleague groups. That movement fizzled pretty quick and it's the only movement of its kind that I saw while in professional ministry.

    I have served in towns where the local police and/or SO vetted transients seeking assistance. This really was initiated from the church side because there were so many who would go to a number of churches with a sad story. One family came into a town on a Wednesday evening (when many churches had services or programs) and when the notes were compared later, they left with at least $1800 in assistance. Our goal was to help, but the resources are limited and needs to be distributed where it does the most good. Having the police vet each voucher serves as a warning not to go to multiple sites for aid.

    As I have matured, I have become more and more libertarian in my politics and philosophy. I think "wars" on concepts or inanimate objects are unwinnable and do nothing but add to the budgets of those fighting the wars and less liberty for all. I agree that there are churches that focus on control and manipulation. There are some clergy (or lay leaders) who are obsessed with accumulating power. I also believe there is a faith that frees people to be all they can be. Those are the folk that I want to be surrounded by. I think of the pastors and church leaders in Baltimore who put themselves between the police and the demonstrators last year and brought a degree of peace to a very troubled moment in history. That was the church at it's best. You can't paint the best and the worst with the same brush stroke and speak the whole truth.

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    • Mahatma Muhjesbude says:

      East! Somehow I knew you'd be commenting on this! (smile) I've got classes all day today but I'll certainly thoughtfully peruse your essay later and get back to you on it. Thanks!

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    • Mahatma Muhjesbude says:

      Hey Michael, apparently you don't know many priests very well, HAhahah!
      And of course, That's the Vatican Way! For your historical factual information, or lack of it, priests are notoriously and infamously at the core of so much evil that i won't even waste the time trying to convince people like you about it, Even though a lot of it can't even be denied even by those so pathetically imprisoning their own minds in abject denial, without being observed as a complete moron.

      You know, things like wholesale homosexual rape of children, Nuns, (check out Mother Theresa's REAL holy mission that even the Popes were trying to shut her down) covered up and lied about by everybody from the Pastors to the Pope, until undercover LEO's like myself pushed investigations to their limit, risking our own lives, and the fact that even the Vatican itself has one of the best 'assassination' formats of any government. These 'holier than thou'
      Vaticanists even have the best format for killing their own Popes if they disagree with the Oligarchy. Check out the historical FACTs on how many Popes mysteriously died in office by 'unknown Natural' causes, LOL! Without an autopsy!! Conveniently, the Church doesn't allow them for 'Godmen' like popes, LOL!

      If you want to hold your priest in high regard just because he wears a Keanu Reaves Matrix frock and a white cloth over his Adam's Apple, that's fine, but don't tell someone like me, who KNOWS--much better than you--the reality truth of the 'holier-than-thou' so-called adherance to sacrosanct rules. by priests, and any other 'ministry', for that matter.

      I knew this article would push a lot of hot buttons but sometimes it's a good thing to be 'shaken, and not just slowly stirred with you normalcy and confirmation bias never spilling out of the cognitively decedent religious cocktail.

      But "...the 'proprietary' status quo always suffers the pain, sometimes terminally, when 'contaminated' by the Truth."--P.J. Klipangle

      But, of course, i proactively fought and still do for your right to also be a bigot,
      So thank you for your bigotry service.

      May you have peaceful, blissful blessings in your ignorance.

      But, of course, the REAL Truth is out there for anyone not trapped in their own mental enclosure, and willing to dig beneath the history censorship redactions and interpolations by agenda based Vaticanist affiliates.

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      • Michael Heimer says:

        So I don't know many priests very well? Mahatma, I AM a priest and have been one for 45 years! I've been dealing with hateful bigots like you for more years than you've probably been alive. Most of you have been schooled by crackpots like Chick Publications or tutored by historically and factually dishonest individuals like Loraine Boettner. The Catholic Church is made up of imperfect people--including both laity and clergy. That's why Confession is such a precious gift for us. A grace-filled encounter with a merciful God not only yields forgiveness but also strength to hopefully do better. Yes, the clergy sex scandal was real. It brought into the needed sunlight the sad reality that priests are subject to the same effects that Original Sin visits upon all sons And daughters of Adam and Eve. There is no excuse for what happened. Thankfully, hopefully all of these unworthy clerics have been culled out of our ranks and seminaries are vigorously screening applicants to keep such men out of the priesthood in the future. The media did its best, however, to wreak as much damage upon the Catholic Church as it could. One got the impression that the majority of priests were--and are--perverts of one kind or another. The truth is that the same percentage of priests involved in this
        scandal is the same percentage as married men accused of child molestation. The priests that I know are hard working, prayerful men who have sacrificed family life and material gain to help their people find eternal life. I would suggest, Mahatma, that instead spending your time picking up stones to see if any dirt can be found beneath them that you join people of good will trying to bring peace and joy to a world much in need of connecting with God's unconditional and merciful love. Father Michael Heimer

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        • Mahatma Muhjesbude says:

          Well, Father, the Holy Spirit enlightened me after your first comment of me not being on the same ignorance level as you, that you were likely a priest?

          And of course, your second comment confirmed that you are also a classic victim of your own life long mental prison sentence as exemplified by your sinful and completely delusional specious accusations that I am hateful.

          And, as my 'revelations' provided, your demonstration is typical of the church's standard operating procedure. Denounce anything that any opposition in disagreement says. Theodicy, and truthful history notwithstanding. I'm only surprised you didn't call me a 'Satanic Atheist "Hateful Bigot, LOL!

          ...or added in for the flock's mind control benefit here that 'this is how Satan works?

          The truth is I never considered the concept of 'hatred' of anything in life that much? At least not in your obvious self destructive concept.

          My rare temptations with personal animosity sometimes reach the level of dislike or maybe irritation, but even the persons i had to 'righteously', but regrettably, had to kill in war and police 'work', I never actually hated? I often felt sorry for them.

          I even get along well with other Clergy of any denomination/Faith. Unless they ask me questions that they don't want to hear the truth about?

          So I would beg you to pray for yourself to cease these evil predilections for sinful emotional content. Don't worry, you'll be 'forgiven'. I'll put in a word for you.

          Because You don't know me, personally, and NOWHERE, ANYWHERE in my scriptures do i specifically state or imply that i hate anybody. NOWHERE! So why are you lying like that?

          Oh, I forgot for a moment. To the church, telling the truth is considered 'hateful bigotdry'.

          Even in War I didn't really 'hate' the enemy. Often I felt sorry for them. I don't even 'hate' the psycho Islamists. I think that they, too, are a victim of a ruthless below radar power elite with no purpose other than social enslavement.
          But since they represent the worst end result of this type of evil, they have to go, if humanity is to survive.
          Make sure you confess that this evening That is another example of what's wrong with the Church. You fabricate falsehoods, AND spread them? And you really think you are doing God's work?

          You'd probably be shocked if you knew who my mentor was at the Seminary. But he, too, better spent his time later on in life writing books that asked questions which uncovered a lot of socially poisonous 'dirt' under those church 'stones' you don't want anybody to pick up?

          Why don't you want anybody to see what's under those stones, father? They're really piling up along the 'path to heaven' these days. It seems that they're getting BIGGER all the time?

          Well, I guess they would have to be. Maybe even Boulders pretty soon After all the Earth always gives up it's dirty little secrets over time...

          How much 'dirty business' do you think the church is still hiding down there, Father?

          Hope it's not enough to outweigh the so-called good the church is supposed to be doing in the world?

          How can you say you want to keep hiding dirt from the people and at the same thinking you're doing 'good'?

          Got any psychology training or knowledge? Do you know what that sounds like?

          I've personally tried all my life to do good as more than just a 'relgious' vocation. You might be embarrassingly surprised at your ignorant assumptions if I told you the details.

          The difference between you and people like me is that i don't use the disguise of benevolent good and love to further a world dominance organizational power elite agenda.

          I actually practice the proliferation of love over hate in the purest sense of higher consciousness.

          And by exposing as much of the 'dirt' under the rocky road of life that i can, even if it's 'church dirt', I am a 'true believer' that this does more good in the true spirit of Jesus than all the pre-programmed defensiveness by all you Vaticanist power elites.

          After all, Jesus was All About Enlightenment, wasn't He Father?

          Listen, I'll pray for you tonight, but listen carefully. If you start to have dreams of burning heathen Apostates at the Stake or Torturing all us "Hateful Bigots' for 45 years, let me know...

          I'll hear your confession. I usually charge unholy fees but for you--since you so gracefully validated the purpose of my crusade-- It's on the Arm...so to speak.

          And, unlike your banally archaic practice of handing out 'penance' afterward, I will give you Positive encouragement' i give a Full Eternal Life-time guarantee that you will be raised a bead or two on the Rosary of Higher Consciousness!

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        • Mahatma Muhjesbude says:

          Well, Father, the Holy Spirit enlightened me after your first comment of me not being on the same ignorance level as you, that you were likely a priest?

          And of course, your second comment confirmed that you are also a classic victim of your own life long mental prison sentence as exemplified by your sinful and completely delusional specious accusations that I am hateful.

          And, as my 'revelations' provided, your demonstration is typical of the church's standard operating procedure. Denounce anything that any opposition in disagreement says. Theodicy, and truthful history notwithstanding. I'm only surprised you didn't call me a 'Satanic Atheist "Hateful Bigot, LOL!

          ...or added in for the flock's mind control benefit here that 'this is how Satan works?

          The truth is I never considered the concept of 'hatred' of anything in life that much? At least not in your obvious self destructive concept.

          My rare temptations with personal animosity sometimes reach the level of dislike or maybe irritation, but even the persons i had to 'righteously', but regrettably,confront in violent war and police 'work', I never actually hated? I often felt sorry for them.

          I even get along well with other Clergy of any denomination/Faith. Unless they ask me questions that they don't want to hear the truth about?

          So I would beg you to pray for yourself to cease these evil predilections for sinful emotional content. Don't worry, you'll be 'forgiven'. I'll put in a word for you.

          Because You don't know me, personally, and NOWHERE, ANYWHERE in my scriptures do i specifically state or imply that i hate anybody. NOWHERE! So why are you lying like that?

          Oh, I forgot for a moment. To the church, telling the truth is considered 'hateful bigotdry'.

          I don't even 'hate' the psycho Islamists. I think that they, too, are a victim of a ruthless below radar power elite with no purpose other than social enslavement.

          But since they represent the worst end result of this type of evil, they have to go, one way or another if the rest of humanity is to survive.

          So make sure you confess that this evening, Michael. That is another example of what's wrong with the Church. You fabricate falsehoods, AND spread them? And you really think you are doing God's work?

          You'd probably be shocked if you knew who my mentor was at the Seminary. But he, too, better spent his time later on in life writing books that asked questions which uncovered a lot of socially poisonous 'dirt' under those church 'stones' you don't want anybody to pick up?

          But Why don't you want anybody to see what's under those stones, Father Michael? They're really piling up along the 'path to heaven' these days. It seems that they're getting BIGGER all the time?

          Well, I guess they would have to be. Maybe even Boulders pretty soon After all, the Earth always gives up it's dirty little secrets over time...

          How much 'dirty business' do you think the church is still hiding down there, Father?

          Hope it's not enough to outweigh the so-called good the church is supposed to be doing in the world?

          How can you say you want to keep hiding dirt from the people and at the same thinking you're doing 'good'?

          Got any psychology training or knowledge? Do you know what that sounds like?

          I've personally tried all my life to do good as more than just a 'religious' vocation. You might be embarrassingly surprised at your ignorant assumptions if I told you the details.

          The difference between you and people like me is that i don't use the disguise of 'holier-than-thou' religionist version good and love which is really supporting a world dominance organizational power elite agenda.

          I actually practice the proliferation of love over hate in the purest sense of higher consciousness.

          And by exposing as much of the 'dirt' under the rocky road of life that i can, even if it's 'church dirt', I am a 'true believer' that this does more good in the true spirit of Jesus than all the pre-programmed defensiveness by all you Vaticanist power elites.

          After all, Jesus was All About Enlightenment, wasn't He Father?

          Listen, I'll pray for you tonight, but listen carefully. If you start to have dreams of burning heathen Apostates at the Stake or Torturing all us "Hateful Bigots' for 45 years, let me know...

          I'll hear your confession. I usually charge unholy fees but for you--since you so gracefully validated the purpose of my crusade-- It's on the Arm...so to speak.

          And, unlike your banally archaic practice of handing out 'penance' afterward, I will give you only Positive encouragement' i give a Full Eternal Life-time guarantee that you will be spiritually raised a bead or two on the Rosary of Higher Consciousness!

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          • Michael Heimer says:

            Mahatma. Engaging in further conversation with is obviously an exercise in futility. I truly feel sorry for anyone like you so filled with darkness, anger and vitriol. Your negative ranting and raving on and on speaks volumes. I go to bed each night at peace with God and with myself. I can only hope and pray God will someday grant you the same. Have a good life, Mahatma, I truly wish you well even if you don't for me. Father Michael Heimer

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    • Mahatma Muhjesbude says:

      East, I didn't want to imply that all religious faith based belief systems are inherently bad/immoral/mentally ill, or anything like that? They certainly are not. Even if some are considered way out or weird that's okay too. That's what Secular Liberty is ALL about. You can have your 'craziness', and do whatever feels good, as long as it doesn't violate the fundamental laws of natural peaceful humanity, you should have the thought Freedom to enjoy life thoroughly. Jesus NEVAH (as they say down South) said you had to suffer ALL the time, did HE?). And the non-denominational Framers set it up as such.

      But I was making an observation based on clear and insidious evidence that soon we will have the 'exception', like I'm sure yours and others here are, they they will be easily proving the rule, if things like this keep corrupting religionism and causing it to depart from supporting American Liberty and Justice for all, then the 'end' really is near, indeed? If anyone doubts that I can give them voluminous historic evidence of how destructive such a path is.

      Anyway it's good that anytime people think outwardly enough-which is more of a spiritual essence than subjective inward bias, the path to higher consciousness is widened. I'm glad for you.

      I'll close with this modest fat free food for thought. I have nothing against religion or believing in God. But I am totally out of sync with the complicated and agenda based juggernauts of greed and power hungry manifestations at the expense of control over the sheeple.

      Wasn't that the mission of Jesus? Didn't He depart from the unholy control complexity of the Hebrew social system? Which is why the Jews condemned him for His Teachings? Which were very simple and terse by moral comparison.

      This is because reaching true moral high ground is really not an attacking advance to the rocky and well sharpened peak of Mt. Everest. It is simple, but honest and good clime up a beautiful rolling hillside glowing in the morning sunshine.

      We just have to free our minds from the complexities and complications of our human tendency to create our own personal problems until the practice
      goes 'viral', and maybe then, we'll have salvation?

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  5. Loved the artical!! Need to keep our prayers to God private & our guns just in reach!

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  6. Michael Heimer says:

    "Et tu,Brutus" Is Your Church a NSA Spy?" Mahatma, everyone in America has the right to express his opinion but your bigoted reference to Confession nonetheless leaves a sordid stench in the air. Confession isn't a collection agency for sin. It is rather a sacred sacramental encounter with God to cleanse the soul. Its roots are to be found the Gospel of John (Jn 20:22-23). Priests are bound by what's known as the "seal of Confession". A direct violation of the seal to anyone--even another priest--instantly results in an automatic excommunication of the priest. A priest is bound to keep to keep the seal intact even if it means he must suffer death to protect it. Your reference to it as an "unholy practice" is deeply offensive to Catholics. Your ignorance of a religious body you obviously know little about--and what you do know is riddled with error--is appalling.

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    • ezra obrien says:

      Bible-believing Protestants share Michael Heimer's desire to defend the concept of confession, if not the exact Roman Catholic practice. "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another that you may be healed" -- James 5:16. This is a healthy practice that is part of what's meant by "the fellowship of the saints." But, folks, this is a side matter to the point Mahatma is making. It's an important point, if you attend a large church. There may be government observers; give them something godly to observe and to think about, rather than feeding their evil suspicions. Look at this as an opportunity! In fact, there may be onlookers and sleepers of various sorts (let your imagination fill in the blank). This is not a reason to withdraw from people around you, though. Reach out, share what you believe, encourage each one to draw near to the Lord. That way you may accomplish something helpful.

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    • Fireant says:

      No offense but just my life long observations from living in Naples when Luciano died and the same for Pius 12. Guess who had the bigger funeral? Catholics normally vote left as do most American Jews. Not real consistent with their beliefs or tradition. While you would like to think you know what the Church is doing, it is impossible. A closed society like many. And a very unpredictable world power unto itself. Controlling its faithful with fear, guilt and mysticism. Would it not be great if the Church had no agenda. It is Catholic relief taking money from the government to run thousands of soldier age male Muslims into this country. That would really appear to right up there with Pius 12 providing sanctuary for Nazi war criminals to escape to South America. Here is part of the real hidden agenda. http://www.naturalnews.com/051058_2030_Agenda_United_Nations_global_enslavement.html

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  7. Doris will says:

    Since the day they nailed Jesus to the cross, Non-believers have tried to destroy the Christian Church, they even paid a spy to catch Jesus. Jesus died on the cross, was resurrected, met with His disciples and ascended into Heaven. Last Sunday was Pentecost, the establishment of The Christian Church. Non-believers were still trying to wipe Christians off the face of the earth then. It hasn't been lollipops and roses here, but we are still here, and will be until we are called by Our God to our eternal home. Remember Luther: A mighty fortress is our God ...let goods and kindred go, this mortal life also, the body they may kill God's truth abideth still. His Kingdom is forever.

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  8. Mahatma Muhjesbude raises Constitutional questions about the "Separation Clause" in the First Amendment. But the term "separation of church and state" appears nowhere in the body of, or amendments to, the constitution. It was a phrase used by Thomas Jefferson in private letters and has no legal effect.

    Furthermore, almost all churches in America are 26 USC 501(c)(3) corporations created by the government, but only after a church requests that status from the IRS. And what the government creates -- the government controls. And that principle is upheld in Article IV section 3 of the Constitution which says:

    "The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State."

    501c3 churches are the property of, and under the control of, the Federal government. And by applying for 501c3 status a church agreed to all needful rules and regulations of the federal government to protect itself.

    Rant and rave as you will -- but the government spying in its own churches is very much in accord with the Constitution.

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    • Ezra obrien says:

      Unregistered churches abound. Also, in Virginia, there is the Unincorporated Religious Organization slot, by which the state government agrees to accommodate churches like mine that won't incorporate nor ask the IRS's permission to exist. Not to encourage complacency---yes, the gummint thinks it's God and they have considerable force to back up even their worst ideas.

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      • Ezra obrien says:

        I should add that the Virginia designation I mentioned is not something a church asks for, but rather it's a matter of self-identification. Again, where possible, churches that take their mission seriously should avoid giving the government any reason to claim it owns the church. "Where possible": remember that when the early church in Rome met in the catacombs, they were organized as a burial society. Sometimes all you can do is take the best option, in order to carry out your purpose (e.g., the great commission). It's not about keeping your hands clean, because no one can do that perfectly, except Christ.

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        • Mahatma Muhjesbude says:

          Ezra, the 'early' church was The Holy Roman Catholic Church. Circa 320 AD. They didn't need to hide or sneak around in the catacombs. They had Constantine's legions backing them up.

          What you might be referring to is splinter groups of so-called Christians, and they were very sectarian and denominational with different leaders even back then, especially after the dominant Jewish power was crushed by Rome around 70AD.

          But again, all these splinter Christians were (forcefully') then 'United' as Catholics (meaning 'united') By Constantine, who then had his Editors in Chiefs make up a proprietary holy book, mainly to preclude any resurgence of the Jewish books, and the rest...as they say, is history.

          ...unless the greedy manipulators

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          • ezra obrien says:

            oh, history prior to 320 AD doesn't count? I stand corrected. I see also by the common thread developing here that only the Roman church is under discussion. Maybe you should change the terms in use, to avoid broad-brushing everyone. But I am being facetious. Honestly, when you start pigeon-holing everyone in the Catholic church and all its acts as evil and equally to be dismissed, you undermine your intention for open discussion. You have lots of allies for a pro-freedom and pro-human liberty point of view among Catholics and Protestants --- so don't cut yourself off from us unnecessarily.

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      • Mahatma Muhjesbude says:

        Ez...Sure pre-300 AD religious history counts, in my humble but paid scholarly opinion, it was one of the most interesting times.

        But you gotta get it right before you pass on the info. Otherwise it's just misinformed Bullshit like all these agenda based historic 'reformers' like to change and interpolate.

        And I do include ALL religious organizations or the generic term 'churches' in my article assessment but when most people talk about THE church and/or qualify in context by saying the 'early' church, they are usually referring to the official 'Holy Roman Catholic Church'. Christian 'Ministries' is the term usually reserved for 'any other' Faith, although, yes, I know, whether you're a Southern Baptist or Kalifornia Catholic, you still call your organizational place of worship, 'My church'.

        And I'm not trying to paint every church with a broad brush. See my response to Reverend East above here. I'm only trying to warn of the impending Freedom Danger TO ALL OF THEM

        I can see how we got confused here. Word Definitions, Especially over historic time periods often are self obfuscating. Let me submit this to you for historic clarification, in very brief synopsis:

        After the Crucifixion The Romans supposedly cracked down harder on so-called 'Christians', or followers of Christ. (Remember, it wasn't really organized at this point because while on Earth, Jesus was never Christian, he grew up a Jew, went away, and came back a 'Master' which was likely an Essene, at the time. And debatably interpreted by some as a prophesized Saviour/King to save the people more from the Romans, at the time, than from their own sinfulness.

        In any case the Roman Government got tired of all dissent, and like Jade Helm or WOD swat teams in the middle of the night, they started to arrest anybody talking shit about the Emperor and use them for Lion snacks in the Arena Games.
        .
        The Orthodox Hebraic Jewish Patriarcs didn't mind this, of course, because they were already bedroom tootsie twitchers with the Romans, and they didn't like any rabble peons including followers of this Jesus Apostate who irritated the Kosher out of the Rabbis and the Roman government in that area.

        So, the original followers of Jesus, still far from looking anything like a physical church/group, splintered up and literally went underground, when they had any 'social integrations so as not to be victims of Roman Totalitarianism.

        Some 'Christians' used the catacombs for secret meetings and such, some Bugged Out for the desert mountains and caves, and some got as far away into other lands as they could from Roman Law and soldiers.

        We'll stipulate that this happened before 300 AD to the Crucifixtion.
        Although some noted Scholars and Academics contend that there is now serious evidence that the actual Biblical time lines could be way off on this.

        In around Enter Roman Emperor Constantine The Great and his Mother who may have been secretly a Christian and by this time the Roman empire had too much sectarianism in its religious belief systems for Rome's liking and profit potential assessment, so it was decided that Rome would unite all faiths under one Universal religion to be called Catholicism.

        If you still wanted your own cult group up in the hills, you ran the risk of eventually meeting up with a detachment of Gladius bearing roman Swat Teams coming to take you away.

        It was either Roman Religion, or NO religion because you'd be dead.

        After the Fall of the Roman empire, The Vatican survived because they were so rich, and Italy was formed but Sectarianism once again
        proliferated as the population grew.

        Eventually the Vatican established their own 'military' by creating their own 'warrior' monks. (knights Templar) And then made allies/alliances with other Kingdoms if they accepted Catholicism.

        The 800 pound camel in the room question might be, how come after Jesus went away, there wasn't just one form of Christian Faith?

        If you want the reality answer, I'll tell you. It's pretty interesting history.

        But it wouldn't really matter. After the Medieval dark ages came the 'age of Enlightenment', and once again the Catholic Church Splintered.

        My first Childhood experience with Apostate hatred was in Catholic grammar school where the Pastor gave the daily catechism classes and told us 'monster' stories of the Devil to scare us into submisshion. Every chance he'd get he'd pound it into our skulls that the devil incarnate were known as 'Protestants'.

        We were bound byntall that is holy to give unconditional HATE to Protestnts. I nor any of my classmates even knew what a 'Protestant' really was? Until years later. We were just 'indoctrinated' into being 'hateful' at the mere mention of the word?

        And God Loves us all...???

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        • ezra obrien says:

          Mahatma, thanks for the courtesy of a long reply. While I don't agree with the spin you've placed on some of the history, and I think you are confused about the nature of the church, it shows you are less ignorant than your shorter remarks sounded. And longer comments take us all away from more important things, so it's kinda inevitable. Sorry you've found so much to hate; as Michael Heimer seemed to be saying, the vast majority of Christians over the years, both insiders and spectators, are just ordinary, earnest people. They quietly trust Jesus and try to cooperate with his working out his sanctification in their lives. None of us are sinless, but don't paint us all the same as the evil bureaucrats you've evidently collided with. Those will show up in any human organization.
          But again, I say, all this was a distraction from your core message, which appeared to be that there can be spies and false flag actors in larger churches, and everyone needs to know that. It's good info, I'm glad you shared it, and I'm going to leave it there--'nuff said by all of us.

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          • Mahatma Muhjesbude says:

            Yeah, I agree EZ, 'After all is said and done, there will always be more said...than done.'

            But I just want to conclude with a note of enlightenment, rather than the typical conventional religionism confirmation bias, that you and Father Michael charactoristicallyo like to use to protect land preserve your higher moral ground status-quos.

            Which is that somehow you had to misinterpret that my historic 'ignorance' is based on hatred--which it is not--, and that my historic interpretation of religious reality is based on misguided 'belief', which it also is not.
            And I just want to exit the thread by seeing if i get something straight.

            Belief is the product of incomplete or unproven--except maybe in your own imagination-- or hearsay, from someone else's unproven thinking. right?

            And this is my post graduate area of scholarship.

            Whereas all you modern Christian faith based 'true-believers' (oxymoron in spades, LOL!) get all your history from a single 1000 page book that was created, not by God, Not by Jesus, and NOT by anybody who had any contact at All with anybody who ever even had a sing single Tweet from God, I get all my information from true Knowledge.

            The Bible was compiled by an interesting Roman Bishop named Eusubius who employed a small army of monks to create e a work based on the limited accrued historic knowledge written and passed down at the time, Which included a healthy, but still highly interpolated agenda based reference from old Hebrew Texts. And then finally 'Edited' by Constantine himself, who also declared himself the first 'leader' of the Church.

            There is much advanced scholarship and resources on the rest of the story which was that after Constantine's end, there were countless challenges to the Bibles legitimacy, even by opposition within Church Hierarchy itself.

            Of course today's Vatican doesn't want you to know this and carefully brainwashes their masses of minions into denial resistance to any questions.

            And subsequently the definition of religion became something that renown scholars secretly refer to as the belief by a lover of fairy tales that the true word of God can be found in a book that was basically formulated on nothing but hearsay--if even there ever was a valid attempt at reality content in the first place-- and so hopelessly mutilated with subjective and agenda based historically inaccurate information that there are still several 'versions' of the Bible even today to prove this.

            And you think I'M the ignorant one, LOL?

            Look, There are basically two kinds of Bible historians. Those who went to Catholic Universities with very 'Proprietary' curriculum protocols, and Forensic History Scientists and researchers from the Secular part of society, Both carrying advanced accredited degrees...but both with very different agendas, missions, and methodologies in their opinions, conclusions, and proofs.

            I'm in the latter group. From 1996 to 2005 I participated in three Middle East privately funded expeditions/digs/research while finishing up my doctorate. I've met and had deep discussions with a couple of the foremost archaeological Bible experts in the World--and you say, 'You don't agree with the 'spin' I've placed on some of my history'!

            HAhahahahah! Thanks, I needed a good laugh.

            Nah, The second group here deals in factual reality based on empirical irrefutable evidence and research. I could tell you verifiable things that would shock your consciousness, and leave you mumbling to yourself long into the stormy night of your mind.

            But why bother, It likely wouldn't release you from the chains of your brainwashing, and if you're content in your 'bliss', so be it. Enjoy it while you can. If Hillary gets in you might not be able to anymore, as she transforms a great Egalitarian Secular nation into a Totalitarian Dictatorship.

            I don't think a lot of us really know who has been, and still is, operating the Spinning Wheel?

            But I can honestly say this. Because I'm sure you and other's might be thinking this. I'm Not an Atheist. Not even an agnostic, which I may have once been at first after i escaped from religionism. But Jesus was certain correct in when he taught that 'the truth shall set you free'.

            My mind is now completely Free of all incorrect Biblical thinking concerning God.

            The difference between you and me is that i don't 'believe' or have 'faith' in God. I actually Know who or what God is! And not just like some of the confirmation bias semantic twist artists say, like "I Know deeply who God is from the Holy Spirit entering my heart...', lol!

            I, and many others, truly have esoteric intimate knowledge of the truth and reality of God. And I can prove it! By all universally accepted measures of rational, logical, objectivity and verifiable substantiation. Beyond all reasonable doubt.

            There's a huge, monumental difference in having 'faith by believing' in something...

            And truly Knowing it.

            Amen
            .

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  9. ridgerunner says:

    Aren't FEMA's Community Emergency Response Teams (CERTs) also compiling information like who is storing food, farmers who have diesel storage, and anything else the government wants on their break-your-door-down and take list when the SHTF. I was going to join a CERT until I found out this was one of their mandates.

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    • Fireant says:

      Yes indeed. Along with interment camps.
      http://www.naturalnews.com/051058_2030_Agenda_United_Nations_global_enslavement.html

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    • Mahatma Muhjesbude says:

      PRESIDER! Spoken like a true 'Sovereign' Citizen! Clever logic manipulation. Except for your erroneous misinterpretation of Jefferson's later additional explanation and further clarification of the Church and State Separation Clause in the 1st/A...'Congress shall make no law respecting religion'.

      I wish people would just read more actual follow up actual history, like for instance the ENTIRE Federalist Papers to start with, Then all of Jeffersons works, then Paine, and so on before just parroting what some other ignoramus said to further their particular agenda.

      And then there's the colloquial conundrum that always pops in these types of conversations. There's a subtle, but important, difference between 'separation' and sequestration.

      The term 'separation' was more common language back then than saying an Egalitarian republic (which is what we really are, NOT a democracy, which is too easy to turn into a theocracy, like Islamist do) cannot have a theocracy, or theocratic subversion to function equitably.

      What the government is trying to do in relation to this article, is to Co-opt the mindless religionism in this country for their own Totalitarian agenda.

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      • Fireant says:

        Agreed. And that leads into why the administration, with all its Muslim Brotherhood associated appointees, so favors the political ideology disguised as a religion known as Islam. As witnessed through the flooding of the country with male soldier age Muslim "refugees". Communism and Islam share the same agenda. Totalitarian government and world domination.

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        • Mahatma Muhjesbude says:

          Yes! And that proves the underlying major point. If a regime can co-opt one religion, they can then integrate it into another.

          This raises the certainty proven throughout history that you will then eventually get a bad for the people combination despotic power elite government of theo-Corporatism,. Which, if one seriously studies the esoteric occult aspects of Nazism, one finds amazing correlations?

          Which is why the Founders came to the serious conclusion of NO FREAKING THEOCRACIES, PERIOD!

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    • Mahatma Muhjesbude says:

      Funny you should mention that? I was just doing some research on that subject and it's sanctioned under agenda 21 and the DNR. But rural private property, especially in Castle doctrine states, can be pretty much immune to random arbitrary checking/tresspassing. Very thin 4th/A line there we must hold on to, and not let them cross.

      But in the last generation, greedy profit oriented State and local municipal governments have contracted 'tax madness' and profit delirium to a point where they now deploy the PROPERTY TAX ASSESSOR to spy on what you are doing.

      They really don't need to come on your property to 'inspect' it physcially for assessment. They have all kinds of other non-intrusive references they can use to calculate a fair property tax but they now have laws to provide county assessors warrantless access to your property--even if you are not there!

      Why do they need that?

      We know why.

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  10. Fireant says:

    The left has been in overdrive trying to destroy Christianity since the Christian right put Bush in office with the great hanging chad issue. As Ann Coulter has pointed out, the reason the left hates religion is that it holds them accountable, and they want no accountability for anything. Couple that with the Muslim/Communist backbone of this administration and you have massive effort to expunge the country of its moral and ethical history. The Communists love of the political ideology disguised as a religion know as Islam is only understandable if one looks at the common goals as opposed to the clear cut hypocrisy. Both ideologies want totalitarian government and world domination. Islam will be used to create chaos which allows the left to strip more civil rights and the the way for the implementation of UN Agenda 2030.
    Study up and prepare. http://www.naturalnews.com/051058_2030_Agenda_United_Nations_global_enslavement.html

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  11. If you REALLY want to know how and who is doing ALL of this go to AmazingDiscoveries.com watch Total Onslaught by WalterVeith. Watch from the beginning to the end. Don't skip because it builds on itself. Then you will have the information to really see the what why and who and Prepare for what is coming. God Bless you all and hope to see you in Heaven.

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  12. I'm with you all the way with one correction. There is no separation clause in the 1st Amendment. What it says is the Government can't put in place a 'State Religion' everyone must be a member of and pay tribute to such as was the Church of England when we fought for our independence. Really, if the pastor is a G sheep, then leave and find another that isn't.

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    • Mahatma Muhjesbude says:

      KC, Yup, I was waiting for that one. It didn't take long because what you are parroting the latest confirmation bias pseudo-logic manipulation in 'Theocratic Agenda 101) classes by aggressive theocrats.

      So I ask you, semantics notwithstanding, isn't your point the same thing as NOT allowing theocratic influence in government?

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      • ezra obrien says:

        Mahatma, you are making it unnecessarily hard for reasonable people to engage with you. Please distinguish between valid religion and theocratic . Or do you admit the existence of any valid religion? If you reject Christianity entirely, then there is no purpose for your opener, where you identified yourself as interested in religion (at least, I guess that is what being a religious historian means). You've issued what sounds like a valid warning, but commingled with a distracting screed against organized religion. As a professional writer and editor for 45 years, I would suggest you stick to one message at a time.

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        • Mahatma Muhjesbude says:

          Ezra, (got a good Amish friend by that name) take it easy and don't get too excited. I'm not anybody's enemy.

          well, to make the distinction succinctly, and in clear 'reasonable' objectiveness, a 'valid' religion in America under the Constitutional Law of the Land (not God's law) would definitely NOT be a theocracy.

          As far as my personal view of organized faith based belief systems referred to as 'religionism' because someone, like Jesus for instance, didn't belong to any organized Christian religion if you actually know anything at all about his teachiongs, And the Cathollic theodicy scholars finally had to reluctantly concede that you don't absolutely need the organization of the church system to be 'saved', even though die hard priests like Fr. Jonathan Morris still contend otherwise.

          So because of the difference, i would surely 'admit' the existence of valid religions, by general definition, if not necessarily legitimate function. Which among religionists themselves, is usually proprietary and subjective as exemplified herein. And that's fine, in your own protected right of personal pursuit of happiness.

          Because they exist all around us in their own stature and protected by the same 1st/A that keeps us from deteriorating into a self-destructive theocracy.

          In an attempt once in life to ween myself from a ;cancerous career in Statist sanctioned Imperialist violence, i even became an ordained Christian Minister stepping in for the pastor on weekends services in a very small rural community in South Carolina in a past life and my sermons were so good that churches in other towns were so jealous of our success that, like the good Fr. Michael above here, they considered me a 'hateful bigot' because my version of Jesus' teachings was more 'insightful' and brought in more 'souls', LOL. They went as far as to accuse me of 'criminal activity' but when the local constabulary came to ask questions, I whipped out my government day job 'credentials' at the time, which instantly solved the problem with everybody once and for all.

          That experience first 'enlightened' me unto the deleterious manifestations of the evil of sectarian competition for the souls and pocketbooks of the flock.

          I can't imagine anyone in their right mind-even the most devout among us- wanting to live in a world under a theocracy when there are literally at least 3000 different substantially organized religions in the world now to include every knock off of Christianity and Catholicism imaginable which weren't exterminated by Sectarian holy wars in the past before there were any egalitarian SECULAR laws yet because the American Constitution wasn't formed yet.

          Even pre-Constitution day America was rife with Sectarian conflict that almost rivaled the Arab World today? Entire townships were nothing but theocracies and were often at physical and economic 'holy wars with each other?

          So, if you DON'T subscribe to the totally unmerciful god of the Old Testament who was the greatest mass killer of all time when he wiped out all of humanity His human creation pissed him off..

          Then feel free to magnanimously forgive me if i hurt your religionist feelings. I had no intent to do this maliciously and the thread here was woven when somebody here previously took things the wrong way and had to be corrected.

          So I hope that clarifies my stance for you somewhat, but as far as your concern for me to 'stick to one message at a time'...I'll just say:

          Why should I narrow the scope of any righteous messaging. That should always be expanded? That's my purpose here?

          Besides, does the Bible stick to one message at a time?

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  13. EASTOFAUSTIN says:

    So many comments. I've enjoyed the thread, even if it is to be amused by the narrow minded and cliche' d view expressed by many. There are also elements of truth (at least my understanding of it) mixed in many places. It would really help if there was some common foundation for the discussion. While it would be nice if everyone read the totality of The Federalist Papers (and The Anti-Federalist Papers, as well), that might be a bit much for a focus on religion. Far more compact for the purposes of this discussion would be the essays by Madison and Jefferson from the mid-1790s on the bill in Virginia establishing a tax to support Christian clergy. I think that Madison's paper is called "Memorials and Remonstrances Against Religious Assessments" and Jefferson's is "Statue for Religious Freedom in Virginia." That would be a beginning.

    Likewise, a common grasp of the early church would be good. Let it suffice to say that following Jesus death, the disciples scattered to the wind. All of them were Jews and to one degree or another they joined with synagogues throughout the diaspora. Those "jews" had been in their respective areas for as much as 600 years and there has to be some degree of acculturation in each of them. The Apostle Paul was upfront about a willingness to be "all things to all people" if it served the purpose of sharing the story and gospel of Christ. Add in the fact that gnostic religious had made inroads into Judaism and other religions of the time, and that Christianity was either compatible with or subject to corruption by gnosticism, there were any numbers of flavors of Christianity competing with each other by the time of Constantine. In terms of "persecution," it was real in some places during some periods. There are also letters from Roman officials speaking to the character of Christians as a group, commending them to the Emperor. It was really a mixed bag. Constantine was not really interested in religion. Or better said, Constantine's interest in religion was always secondary to he need and desire to unify the empire. Since Christianity in its various forms had grown far more popular than "the gods," it made sense to co opt them in an "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" sort of way.

    There is another area that has not been mentioned. That is the "civic (or civil) religion" of the Enlightenment, specifically comment on by Rousseau. I'm doing this from memory so I won't get it all exactly right, but Rousseau, an atheist, commented that religion was useful in controlling the masses. He also said that Christianity was not a suitable religion for that purpose. What he advocated was a Civic Religion that used the imagery and vocabulary of the predominate religion of the people. He said that the chief characteristics of this religion were: There is a God who is all seeing and all knowing. There is a right or wrong/good and evil. That there is a heaven and a hell and the good will go to heaven and the bad will go to hell. Good and bad are left "contentless" and what is good or evil shall be defined by the state. To me, a lot of American "Christianity" looks much like Rousseau's "Civic Religion."

    The final comment that I will make has to do with the nature of Christianity and Christian "faith." In the Greek, the word for faith is found in two forms. Using transliteration, one is "pistis" which is a noun. The other is "pisteo" which is a verb. In many cases where the New Testament says, "You are saved by faith" the literal Greek uses the participle, thus literally saying, "You are saved by faithing." The essence of Christian faith is not so much what you "believe" but what you do and how you live. Thus, those who call for "faith" to be relegated to the private sphere don't understand what they are saying. Faith cannot be pulled back into the closet, even if prayer may be. Saving faith permeates every aspect of who a person is and what that person does.

    The reason that the state is always so concerned with religion is that true religion recognizes an authority beyond the state. Both Rousseau and Jefferson note this reality. Rousseau says that it is not acceptable. Jefferson commends it. The difference is that Rousseau, in spite of what he says, never came to grips with a state that "continually gains it's legitimate authority" from the consent of the governed. Most today are closer to Rousseau than Jefferson. Most look to the state for both identity and approval. As Jefferson said in the Declaration of Independence, people "are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."

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    • Fireant says:

      Well, for what it's worth I'll give you Ann Coulters' take on why the left is solidly trying to dispose of Christianity. She said it is because religion holds people accountable and the left wants no accountability for anything. I agree. I may have posted this previously but I though it fit your dialog well enough to post it again. The left does not want any competition for the lives of the prolitariat, and that includes their souls.

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  14. Thought I heard about this on the radio before...even NPR has been reporting on this. I remember a while back hearing someone from the ACLU being on NPR talking about this so I just checked their website. I could only find a page about the NYPD and Muslims. (first time I've been to the ACLU's website--they normally focus on issues not related to me and the side they take often leaves me scratching my head...)
    This did remind me of the professor from Penn that was questioned because a passenger thought he was a terrorist because of strange things he was writing on a pad...math equations. See something say something at it's best:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/rampage/wp/2016/05/07/ivy-league-economist-interrogated-for-doing-math-on-american-airlines-flight/

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  15. I know that this could happen to anyone but the baptists are so widely hated that we are probably at most risk of all the denominations espically when we say we are pro gun and church state separation

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    • Mahatma Muhjesbude says:

      John. Not withstanding Totalitarians/and OCD level ego-centric religionist moral authoritarianism, Islam as the most extreme, of course, Vaticanists next, and descending from there, I don't think Baptists are hated much, if at all? I'm a devout outspoken academic 'debunker' of organized agenda based 'holier than thou' 'For Profit' but fraudulently operating as a Non Profit corp. and getting all the bennies of tax free assets but in exchange for their 'voting patronage' the corrupt politicians will hustle them like a pimp on whores for 'support', in clear and present danger of violating the Constitution...God Bless 'em?

      Then these these Moral Absolutists essentially become nothing less than political activists and their church 'group' dynamics essentially become an un-filed replica of a PAC group.

      And of course, there's much, much more to it than that. Regular church goers and true BeLIEvers who practice a faith based integration with others really don't have a clue. At the minimum it takes at least an academic historian-like myself-who has had extensive studies in specializing in religious history to eventuallyexperience the epiphany of true revelation, such as one of the greatest hoaxes ever perpetrated on humanity lol.

      Having said that, of all the relionists who hate me and others like me, and with good cause, because unlike atheists--which I am not--I understand the truth about religion, while atheists have no reason to be hated by the religionists, they simply don't subscribe to any gods or organized un-provable contingency delusional group enterprises

      Yet they, and other Infidels, have been historically persecuted, for no reason other than they didn't want to 'belong' to anything and just wanted to be left alone?

      So my interaction--in terms of 'hatred'-- is mainly with Islamists, Catholics, and their sub categories and affiliates. As is evidenced by the vitriolic caustic invective of some of the responses here.

      But I'm in good company because historically, and even today, Protestants have been the vilification object of large Catholic Vaticanist affiliated Christian organizations since they were created.

      So that's who would be on the receiving end of more general religionist hatred in this country as far as I've observed As fat as Baptists go, I get along pretty well with most of them, as long as they don't try to convert me to try to save my soul, lol! And I think most of the animosity might be coming from other so called Christian groups???

      But I think you misunderstood the article somewhat, John. The government hates competition-unless they can control it to suit their purpose. Then they'll 'let' it continue with below radar 'oversight'. Something else, like an American Patriot Constitutional supporting Milita group has to die, however. Like it did at the Malheur Wildlfe reguge stand-off in Oregon.

      But integrating their agenda based all encompassing privacy killing domestic Tyranny Spy network within churches in specific agenda shows you that sometimes 'Blind Faith' should sometimes wear glasses to read the fine print.

      The churches think, oops, i mean 'believe' that this is a good idea because it helps keep tabs on muslim terrorists. That's what they're 'told', but it's really to keep tabs on Christian patriots 'who like to cling to their guns, along with their Bibles. There's Far more of These people then there are Islamists in this country. Both of which will all be classified into 'domestic terrorists' So naturally, the Enemy Dark State Regime, has to make all it's oppostion into 'enemies of the state' , in order to...clean them up for 'preventive maintenance'.

      You remember Ruby Ridge? The Family they killed were avid church goers and Randy Weaver was approached by the FBI after church one day to spy on 'anti-g white supremist activities in that church. Rand, being of of them himself, told them to fuck off. They set him up, as they can now, much more easily set up anybody they want thanks to the NSA and everything else. And the rest is tragic history.

      So Now, they just have a better trick to play on we, the stupid sheeple. They simply co-opt the churches themselves, as Totalitarian subcontractors!

      What would Jesus say about that?

      And that conclude's today's sermon. Go in peace. We might not have much left of that after Hillary gets in.

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